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    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    America has fought Europeans again and again through history.

    Revolutionary War
    War of 1812
    Spain 1898
    WWI
    WWII
    Cold war
    War on Terror (most, not all, europeans side with America's enemies, jew killing islamofacists)

    We have only fought with Latin America once, Mexico. All of our wars with Asians were against allies of Europeans, japan and the Axis, vietnam communists.

    If European culture, communism, nazism and colonialism had won the world would be a terrible place. Communism murdered 100 million, nazism, 20 or 30 million and in the 20th century only euro colonialism murdered maybe 50 million. European culture is in every way inferior to American culture. The bigest testatment to that is the 200 million plus Americans of european origin, sons and daughters of those who fled europe's failed culture.

    Most Europeans hate Americans, try talking politics with a euro sometime, it's all socialism, jew hating and anti-americanism.

    Why is it that so few Ameriocans bother to hate Euro's? Why do Americans consider europe as an ally? Is n't it better for the world when America opposes Europe?

    Should n't India or Japan be seen as better Allies of the USA? They both have as long or longer democratic traditions as Europe.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    So the European story is the story of anti-Americanism. The EU is supposed to return Europe to the World stage. Ask the French about counter balancing the unipolar world. The EU army is an anti American contraption, the Europeans will surrender to the islamofacists as they have always surrendered to evil.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    Hello Unclehaole, I know this will probably be a waste of my time, but I feel like I should respond, simply so we can have a "European" response to some of the sillyness you are spouting out. I am not intending to fan the flames in anyway, but simply help correct some of the positions you have outlined:

    "America has fought Europeans again and again through history."

    Yes, they have.

    "Revolutionary War"

    Yes, you thought against the British, but maybe you forget but the French, who also happen to be European was on your side too.

    "War of 1812"

    Yes.

    "Spain 1898"

    To be honest I don't know much of late 19th century history, so I'm afraid I have to leave this without comment.

    "WWI"

    Yes, I believe you joined in very late, allying with Britain in France against Germany, but only because Germany sunk some of your civilian transport ships, you wern't really bothered what was going on, just that your nation got revenge. You did nothing against Germany's allies like the Ottoman Empire and left them alone.

    "WWII"

    Sort of comes out the same, Britain and France were on your side, so not all Europeans were fighting you.

    "War on Terror (most, not all, europeans side with America's enemies, jew killing islamofacists)"

    Yes, cause seeing as our nations are fighting along side you in countries like Afghanistan (well, you only partake in "air support" there now) and Iraq, as well as many peace missions as part of NATO. Jew killing? I'm sorry but I can only see this as a reference to Nazi Germany, which was destroyed 60 years ago. Islamofacists? Well I'm actually a Muslim Convert, And I've always seen "Fascism" as more of a christian thing, there is "Islamism" which advocates the adoption of Extreme Islamic law perhaps you'd prefer to use that term instead.

    "We have only fought with Latin America once, Mexico. All of our wars with Asians were against allies of Europeans, japan and the Axis, vietnam communists."

    The United States may not have been in any "wars" in South America, but it did provide some of its dictatorships. US influence in South America was once pretty deep, but now a lot of it was exposed and it has less control. Yep, Britain and France was allied with Japan in WW2. Vietnam had to do with the Soviet Union, not Europeans (yes Russia branches into Europe geographically, but it doesn't come under the definition usually politically).

    "If European culture, communism, nazism and colonialism had won the world would be a terrible place."

    Communism: I guess this is a gist at the Soviet Union, which goes back to the above mentioned point. It might also be good to mention that the Soviet Union for most of its history was authoritarian leaning socialism. You can't group all the liberals into one group, and you can't group all the conservatives into one group, so why group all the communists into one group?
    Nazism: Yes, its a good job they didn't win.
    Colonialism: Colonialism wasn't trying to "win", maybe you aren't familiar with the concept of Colonialism, its not a political ideal but rather land control.

    "Communism murdered 100 million, nazism, 20 or 30 million and in the 20th century only euro colonialism murdered maybe 50 million."

    Yes, the people that Stalin murdered was more than Hitler, and the history of each usually leans to Hitler rather than Stalin, this is because the Soviet Union was on the United States side, as well as the anti-Nazi Germany Europeans. Perhaps that you forget that the Soviet Union was your allies. Its wrong that it has happened, but that's politics.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    "European culture is in every way inferior to American culture. The bigest testatment to that is the 200 million plus Americans of european origin, sons and daughters of those who fled europe's failed culture."

    The first sentence is simply blinded ignorance and nationalism (being very close to the Nazism you are complaining about) on the highest scale, even racist. It should be important to note as well that American colonisation in the beginning was when it was under European rule, and has such was European culture. They might have been running away from some problems they were having at home, but in the end they were not going to another country, but rather a fresh start in a European colony.

    "Most Europeans hate Americans, try talking politics with a euro sometime, it's all socialism, jew hating and anti-americanism."

    Socialism is more common over here yes, the reasons for this is because people like the idea of Equality, a welfare state, a minimum wage building up to a liveable wage. In the US it has gotten a huge demonisation due to the Soviet Union, but I assure you that European Socialism is very different to Stalin's country. Jew hating? Well Anti-Semitism is taken very seriously over here, perhaps even more serious than in the States, where Nazi groups and the KKK continue to operate under "Freedom", in which the hating of Jewish and Black people is very open, where it isn't over here. Do we really hate Americans? I don't think generally that we do, we get annoyed when our soverenty isn't respected by the US, or example kidnapping our citizens and sending them to be tortured and not charged, that bothers us a lot.

    Perhaps one doesn't remember that after September 11th 2001, Europe was very united with the States, and even agreed to go into Afghanistan and Iraq with it.

    "Why is it that so few Ameriocans bother to hate Euro's?"

    Well, I don't mean any disrespect, but many Americans I've talked to sometimes doesn't even know where Europe is, and occasionally doesn't even know what it is. Geography has never been a strong point over there.

    "Why do Americans consider europe as an ally?"

    Perhaps its cause we are the only ones that really listen to your country, who would the States have if it didn't have us? You might have the biggest Navy in the world but you need more than that to survive. Are we that bad?

    "Is n't it better for the world when America opposes Europe? "

    Well you can try going it alone if you want, Europe has more friends than America does, we'd simply move our trade across. I think it'd be a silly thing for the US to cut its ties with Europe.

    "Should n't India or Japan be seen as better Allies of the USA? They both have as long or longer democratic traditions as Europe."

    Is this a joke or something? Both India and Japan have been recent democracies, in fact both of them only got democracy after WW2, while Europe has had it for hundreds of years (and longer than the US, I might add). Japan is already a good ally to the US anyway, don't you even notice it?

    This was just a clear up post so that these comments don't go without reply, like I said its probably a waste of my time, but I felt it necessary to respond.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    So the European story is the story of anti-Americanism. The EU is supposed to return Europe to the World stage. Ask the French about counter balancing the unipolar world. The EU army is an anti American contraption, the Europeans will surrender to the islamofacists as they have always surrendered to evil.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    Hello Unclehaole, I know this will probably be a waste of my time, but I feel like I should respond, simply so we can have a "European" response to some of the sillyness you are spouting out. I am not intending to fan the flames in anyway, but simply help correct some of the positions you have outlined:

    "America has fought Europeans again and again through history."

    Yes, they have.

    "Revolutionary War"

    Yes, you thought against the British, but maybe you forget but the French, who also happen to be European was on your side too.

    "War of 1812"

    Yes.

    "Spain 1898"

    To be honest I don't know much of late 19th century history, so I'm afraid I have to leave this without comment.

    "WWI"

    Yes, I believe you joined in very late, allying with Britain in France against Germany, but only because Germany sunk some of your civilian transport ships, you wern't really bothered what was going on, just that your nation got revenge. You did nothing against Germany's allies like the Ottoman Empire and left them alone.

    "WWII"

    Sort of comes out the same, Britain and France were on your side, so not all Europeans were fighting you.

    "War on Terror (most, not all, europeans side with America's enemies, jew killing islamofacists)"

    Yes, cause seeing as our nations are fighting along side you in countries like Afghanistan (well, you only partake in "air support" there now) and Iraq, as well as many peace missions as part of NATO. Jew killing? I'm sorry but I can only see this as a reference to Nazi Germany, which was destroyed 60 years ago. Islamofacists? Well I'm actually a Muslim Convert, And I've always seen "Fascism" as more of a christian thing, there is "Islamism" which advocates the adoption of Extreme Islamic law perhaps you'd prefer to use that term instead.

    "We have only fought with Latin America once, Mexico. All of our wars with Asians were against allies of Europeans, japan and the Axis, vietnam communists."

    The United States may not have been in any "wars" in South America, but it did provide some of its dictatorships. US influence in South America was once pretty deep, but now a lot of it was exposed and it has less control. Yep, Britain and France was allied with Japan in WW2. Vietnam had to do with the Soviet Union, not Europeans (yes Russia branches into Europe geographically, but it doesn't come under the definition usually politically).

    "If European culture, communism, nazism and colonialism had won the world would be a terrible place."

    Communism: I guess this is a gist at the Soviet Union, which goes back to the above mentioned point. It might also be good to mention that the Soviet Union for most of its history was authoritarian leaning socialism. You can't group all the liberals into one group, and you can't group all the conservatives into one group, so why group all the communists into one group?
    Nazism: Yes, its a good job they didn't win.
    Colonialism: Colonialism wasn't trying to "win", maybe you aren't familiar with the concept of Colonialism, its not a political ideal but rather land control.

    "Communism murdered 100 million, nazism, 20 or 30 million and in the 20th century only euro colonialism murdered maybe 50 million."

    Yes, the people that Stalin murdered was more than Hitler, and the history of each usually leans to Hitler rather than Stalin, this is because the Soviet Union was on the United States side, as well as the anti-Nazi Germany Europeans. Perhaps that you forget that the Soviet Union was your allies. Its wrong that it has happened, but that's politics.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    "European culture is in every way inferior to American culture. The bigest testatment to that is the 200 million plus Americans of european origin, sons and daughters of those who fled europe's failed culture."

    The first sentence is simply blinded ignorance and nationalism (being very close to the Nazism you are complaining about) on the highest scale, even racist. It should be important to note as well that American colonisation in the beginning was when it was under European rule, and has such was European culture. They might have been running away from some problems they were having at home, but in the end they were not going to another country, but rather a fresh start in a European colony.

    "Most Europeans hate Americans, try talking politics with a euro sometime, it's all socialism, jew hating and anti-americanism."

    Socialism is more common over here yes, the reasons for this is because people like the idea of Equality, a welfare state, a minimum wage building up to a liveable wage. In the US it has gotten a huge demonisation due to the Soviet Union, but I assure you that European Socialism is very different to Stalin's country. Jew hating? Well Anti-Semitism is taken very seriously over here, perhaps even more serious than in the States, where Nazi groups and the KKK continue to operate under "Freedom", in which the hating of Jewish and Black people is very open, where it isn't over here. Do we really hate Americans? I don't think generally that we do, we get annoyed when our soverenty isn't respected by the US, or example kidnapping our citizens and sending them to be tortured and not charged, that bothers us a lot.

    Perhaps one doesn't remember that after September 11th 2001, Europe was very united with the States, and even agreed to go into Afghanistan and Iraq with it.

    "Why is it that so few Ameriocans bother to hate Euro's?"

    Well, I don't mean any disrespect, but many Americans I've talked to sometimes doesn't even know where Europe is, and occasionally doesn't even know what it is. Geography has never been a strong point over there.

    "Why do Americans consider europe as an ally?"

    Perhaps its cause we are the only ones that really listen to your country, who would the States have if it didn't have us? You might have the biggest Navy in the world but you need more than that to survive. Are we that bad?

    "Is n't it better for the world when America opposes Europe? "

    Well you can try going it alone if you want, Europe has more friends than America does, we'd simply move our trade across. I think it'd be a silly thing for the US to cut its ties with Europe.

    "Should n't India or Japan be seen as better Allies of the USA? They both have as long or longer democratic traditions as Europe."

    Is this a joke or something? Both India and Japan have been recent democracies, in fact both of them only got democracy after WW2, while Europe has had it for hundreds of years (and longer than the US, I might add). Japan is already a good ally to the US anyway, don't you even notice it?

    This was just a clear up post so that these comments don't go without reply, like I said its probably a waste of my time, but I felt it necessary to respond.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    I think it's mostly wasting time *g*
    But anyway, thanks for that.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    Thank you Mikebloke. You've summed it up: "The first sentence is simply blinded ignorance and nationalism (being very close to the Nazism you are complaining about) on the highest scale, even racist." You could say that about the whole post though ;-)
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    I'm Italian, so we're really interesting to analize the question in this particular period (u know, here there's a great protest in Vicenza against American's decision to enlarge Nato base). I think it's not an antiamericanism problem, but of european identity - we're searching for it now, and even the confrontation between America and Europe it's important to the process, it's also importanto to define an internal identity to differentiate, cause we live in a multiple world even the american pression. I'm very proud to be european, and I know it's difficult to create Europe - now the globalization, the islam pressure, the russian challenge, and other problem, it's all challenges we have to consider. But It's possible to have a new states' union different from united states of america.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    Hi. I'm Gion, writing from Rome. Around uncleahole post, i agree with the comments that Mikeblock and araceli published. Everybody can have a point of view on world's history, but the analysis you've done, uncleahole, it's partial and incomplete.
    In my opinion, Europe has to arrive to a common policy, that should have as first objective the balance between America's agressive and not always far-sighted policy and the other nations. We can moderate the world's greatest problems, by trying to reach a common point of view, son of our unique history experience. Look at today's news:Russia is willing on demonstrating his military superiority against the renewed American policy. Only Europe can moderate and solve this new diplomatic problem, and our governments should work together and find a solution to that. Europe should have an agreement on the major events, such as Somalia's civil war, Iraq, Iran, Palestina. We should try another Copenhagen conference, hoping for a different result this time. We have a great potential on being a powerful economic and political subject. We've invented the new post-modern "commonwealth", in which transparency and interference between states are the new keys to avoid internal conflicts. America, as also Cooper wrote, doesn't want to accept a common interference and Oriental State look at us as a moderate subject in which concetrate diplomatic energy(see Iran).
    We've got the basis. Let's try and work it out.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    America, or parts of it, started very well. They were devout, caring and hardworking people who would be crying with shame if they saw what the country has become. The EU didn't get nearly as good a start, but most of it has had some good points. The protestant revolution which passed through many countries changed a lot for the better, to the extent that the politicians are still having trouble dismantling all the good which was done. In a similar way, the Catholic resurgence taught those in power that they when it comes to their citizens it's morality and not legality which matters.

    With those similarities of foundation you would expect there to be more similarities between the US and the EU, and yet EU countries still see a lot they dislike on the other side of the Atlantic. Is it perhaps the formation of the US itself which has caused so much to change? Sometimes, being too big can be a bad thing. It means that the lowest common denominator gets lower, and there are so many special cases in different regions that the whole society becomes lax and permissive. I just hope the same doesn't happen in the EU and that we still retain some of the values our Founding Fathers would have had, if only they existed.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    vince,

    China and Russia are both bigger than the EU and the US but I don't think you could describe either as "lax and permissive".

    We did have founding fathers, Plato, Galileo, Da Vinci, etc. Simply because they didn't all arrive at the same time in a boat doesn't mean that they didn't perform "founding father" roles.

    I don't know why we are even bothering with this strand. "Unclehaole" was deliberately being an "ahole" when starting it.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    China and Russia were both hardline communist dictatorships. Is that what you are suggesting for the EU?
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    vince,

    No just questioning your logic. You seem to say "big = lax an permissive", just showing that does not hold true.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    GaryLondon - you are right and I must admit that I was wrong. Perhaps I should have limited big to big and democratic. I still think it's a danger that being big will lead to a breakdown of our social and moral attitudes. After all, some parts of the EU are legalising prostitution, some are looking at legalising soft drugs, others have laws which provide senior politicians with immunity to prosecution. EU harmonization will eventually mean that either those countries give those things up, or that all countries will have to permit them. And it's always easier to let people do something new then to stop they doing something they've been doing for a while.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    As an American living in Europe, I appreciate that I am only a spectator in the "European project", but I would like to make a few comments anyway.
    1) I would like to offer a very healthy challenge to Europeans contributing in this debate to attempt to focus on what Europe is/is not WITHOUT any reference to the United States. Sometimes I do feel like there is not a single mirror in Europe (inc. Britain), only windows that see all the way across the Atlantic.
    2) My period of living in Europe (2001-2007) has been very difficult relative to prevailing U.S. foreign policy. I am often confronted, accused, and cursed for events of which I have no immediate control and do not always support. I have been severly disappointed by such prejudice and find it counter to any claims of "culture" which Europeans tirelessly proclaim.
    3) My experience of Europe (living & travel) has been one I can only describe as 'perverted Americanisation'. In fact I often witness ridiculous scenes followed by comments such as "If you think that is bad, it's even WORSE in the U.S...." As someone who has lived in both places, I can assure you that what I usually see is far more over-the-top than what would actually take place in the U.S. This kind of attitute is pure folly, for those who share it risk creating a Europe that is an anti-Americanists nightmare! Stop to consider that it might not acutally be 'worse' ANYwhere else but where you are standing.
    4) Europe, you are what you are...not what you 'are not'. It is clearly obvious that Europeans are not Americans - there is no need to itemise the differences. Even Mr. Garton-Ash (whom I have much respect) cannot resist the prevailing European sport of taking a jab at 'America' here and there. I would think that in the context of defining what Europe 'is', such comments are wasted shots far wide of the goal. Yes, criticse America by name if you feel it's right, but I wouldn't think that this has any profit in Europe's 'project'.
    5) Lastly, I sincerely hope that the European Union proves not to be a "United States of Europe". I don't see how it can be anything but that, and I think it would be a great pity. The euro currency has already homoginised Europe a great deal. Increasingly EU regulations threaten to do more. Preserving Europe's cultural diversity within a rapidly forming super-state is, I suspect, Europe's greatest challenge today - not exhausting energies on comparisons with the United States.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    An American,

    Thank you for you rational comments. I guess that the person that started this strand ("unclehaole") is an American too. So I think you need to consider that American anti-Europeanism got us going here not European anti-Americanism. Both are inappropriate of course.

    Certainly any future which is likely will include the US (and India, China, Middle East, Africa, AIDS, poverty, terrorism etc) and so we (Europeans) should consider our relationship with/to the US (and the others listed). I do agree with you that we shouldn't try to make Europe simply "not-America".

    The reason why I thought that we should drop this strand is that it is self evident to me that Europe and America are not "enemies". They are competitors in some areas, partners in others. We would probably like to have even better partnerships with the US (especially on the environment, free trade, AIDS/medical provision and the ICC).

    Maybe you could start a blog entitled "What story should America tell?". I'm sure that it would be fascinating reading.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    First of all, I didn't know one should consider Europe and US as enemies. During the World Wars we were actually considered as allies - at least when it came to the non-Nazist part of Europe. Here up in Northern Europe the most recent discussion has been about a possible NATO membership. Denmark and Norway are already members. Sweden and Finland are officially neutral but everybody knows that for example the Swedish military has had very close cooperation with the Americans. So, what do you mean - are we supposed to be enemies?! In what sense? Sweden and Denmark have fought numerous wars against each other. As a matter of fact, a large part of present-day Sweden used to belong to Denmark. However, we don't see each other as enemies just for that. It all happened too long time ago.

    Scandinavians may not necessarily want to live in an American type of society. It is too market-driven and offers too little job security and other important benefits. But, that does not stop us from admiring the Americans. My husband is from US and he is quite impressed by the Swedish welfare state. Coming from New Orleans and being a Katrina survivor he strongly feels that Sweden has done a lot more for him than the US government.

    Seeing things from a Scandinavian perspective, the Bush administration has created a sort of a problem, though.The religious fundamentalism presented by the American evangelical and religious right is alien to most of us and we are slightly worried that this kind of Christian fundamentalism could emerge within EU as well. The last thing we want is a fundamentalist Christian EU talking about the Axis of Evil, or whatever it is called this time. Perhaps we ought to start granting political asylum for possible anti-Bush Americans ? :-) I mean, they need some place to go too, don't they...
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    helmi,

    Anti-Bush Americans don't need anywhere to go because Bush is going soon, just like anti-Putin Russians, anti-Chirac French and anti-Blair Brits. Democracy has a habit of meaning that the "people" survive their leaders.
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    I wouldn't be so sure about democracy in Russia. Between "United Russia" and "Just Russia" there is not much space for anyone else - not counting Schroder and Chirac, of course :-)
    • CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2008
     
    Don't waste your time on this.